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12:38 pm CST - February 14, 2011

Posted under On The Record

Mandatory Arabic classes at Mansfield ISD Possible


 Texas Insider Report: AUSTIN, Texas – We have received many calls from the district quite concerned over the ongoing situation at Mansfield ISD.  We have learned that as part of the five-year $1.3 Million grant, Arabic classes would be mandatory at Cross Timbers Intermediate School and Kenneth Davis Elementary School. The program would also be optional for students at T. A. Howard Middle School and Summit High School. 

This has caused consternation within our district as many concerned parents do not want this type of situation to occur in their children’s classrooms and quite frankly, I agree with them whole heartedly.  The Superintendent has publicly stated the program has been placed on hold but that is really not the point.

Parents at Cross Timbers say they were caught off-guard by the program, and were surprised the district only told them about it in a meeting Monday night between parents and Mansfield ISD Superintendent Bob Morrison.  This type of ‘surprise’ is not something that parents need or want and I agree with my constituents that the parents should have been involved from the point any grant was applied for or received.  You have to wonder why are we just now finding out about it.

Apparently, the background on this grant is that the Department of Education has identified Arabic as a ‘language of the future.’  I have to wonder what the reason for this selection was and who was responsible for this selection. 

More importantly, why does the Federal Government think they need to spend our tax dollars on this program when the government is running trillions of dollars in debt?  Many have contended that this an attempt by the federal government to ‘sensitize’ our children to this culture, without information to the contrary I may have to agree with them.   

I also have to wonder that at a time when our children do not spend any time in school learning about our own US Constitution how can this be a priority?  Is it because the Federal Department of Education thinks it knows best what our children need to learn?  Is it part of the culture where others think they know more about what our kids should learn rather than to respect the parent’s wishes?  This is simply an attitude that cannot be allowed to flourish. 

Mansfield ISD says in addition to language, the grant provides culture, government, art, traditions and history as part of the curriculum which is really is the only ‘mandatory’ part.  This seems to make no sense at all and may be a deflection from the truth.  However, one point is clear and is worth repeating:  the ‘culture’ of the Arab world is inseparable from the religious component because it does not respect secular government and never has. 

Their own history books and statements make that perfectly clear.  So, if schools want to teach Islam as a ‘culture’ then I want my constituents to be able to teach Christianity as a culture since the United States is founded on Judeo-Christian principles.  At least that would be fair, but since that may not happen it seems clear that we need to stay away from being politically correct and start being morally correct and concentrate on the religious, historic and moral principles the founding fathers of our country fought so hard to establish.

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59 Comments

Nadir
1:40 pm CST
February 14, 2011


Im muslim and I dont want my kids to learn arabic. Its not a language of the future (at least for 200 years). Please dont force feed christianity to the elementary schools kids either. This nation was not founded on Judeo-Christian principles. If that was true then one could say that this nation was also founded on master-slave principles. I say keep religion away from schools just like sexual predators are kept away. However I would like to see a world cultures class starting from middle school. And I dont mean teaching it through the horrible history books as they exist today. Teach multi-culturism as a means to develop critical thinking. And dont make arabic optional either as we dont have the funds in this economy. Teaching Chinese is not a bad idea since China pretty much owns the USA now through treasury bills.

Rika
1:51 pm CST
February 14, 2011


in case you haven’t ..multi-culturisim failed..
lets not be slow like England or France on this one…
we could try teaching English/ Math/ and History for a change..
we get enough ..u speka spaanesh calls already..

Skeptic
1:58 pm CST
February 14, 2011


For $1.3 million we are willing to kiss Saud’s butt. How pathetic!

In 1882 we made law to ban Chinese immigration to the U.S. because they worked cheap. One hundred years later American businesses closed productions in the U.S. and moved to China because the Chinese work cheap. Which is worse? Chinese working cheap in the U.S. while jobs are kept here? Or Chinese working cheap at home, and U.S. jobs are gone?

Sue
2:34 pm CST
February 14, 2011


This is thoroughly dishonest reporting and is aimed at scaremongering! The facts are that there are no mandatory Arabic classes. In order to qualify for the grant, they have to offer Arabic as a foreign language option, but no one has to take those classes – they can choose other foreign language options or no foreign language in middle school. It’s simply an option. And in the elementary schools, they will make children who are, typically, very unfamiliar with Arabic society, culture, and language a little more exposure to those things. It’s not some indoctrination, or anything close to that.

It’s really sad when people don’t try to inform themselves before participating in fearmongering. You should be ashamed of yourself. I doubt you will be. Here’s a link to a more informative source than this author was. http://www.mansfieldisd.org/departments/communications/news/10-11/february/arabicgrant.htm

garywfbg
3:35 pm CST
February 14, 2011


Don’t you think the kids should learn good English first!! Many graduate and can barely spell their name or read a book. If I want my children to learn Arabic, I’ll say so and it upsets me to pay for something so asinine without my permission. If they learn Arabic in the Military–that’s OK, for when the Middle easterners perform another terrorist act, it will be easier for our boys to interrogate them and find out what happened. :)

BTW—When Russia invaded the Czechoslovakia and other countries—they set about to teach them RUSSIAN—easier to assimilate!!
And Sue—let’s expose the children to some AMERICAN HISTORY for a change and leave off hating on some of the folks that shaped this country. We know sometimes our forefathers were at times beneath reproach, but they still were part of what made this country great!!

pat
3:42 pm CST
February 14, 2011


thanks sue.

Carol Leonard
3:49 pm CST
February 14, 2011


Regardless of whether or not it was mandatory is of no significance. The heart of the matter was that the money was put there to teach Arabic! I wonder how many schools were clamoring for such a program? I dare for them to find one. Therefore, it was inane and a waste of time & money. Perhaps the so-called intelligent people that run our Department of Education need to be dismissed. Let the taxpayers in their own districts decide on what’s best for their students.

Ronald Reagan was right…..get rid of the Department of Education as we can see the results of their programs & how we rank in the world. No wonder so many people are home schooling &/or opting for private schools.

jch
4:04 pm CST
February 14, 2011


Not that we need anymore reasons, but this is just another reason to eliminate the Department of Education at the Federal level. Here is the math – we send them a dollar they keep .20% for handling it and then send us back 80cents and tell us how and where we have to spend it – wake up America

Alice Anders
4:21 pm CST
February 14, 2011


The U.S. needs people who can speak and write Arabic, for National Security reasons. But this article and many respondents are horrified that some school children might be exposed to the language and culture and want to know more.

So much for preparing children to have a great job while protecting us from terrorists!!!

The willful ignorance of this article and the people responding by saying that THEIR children should never be exposed to Arabic is appalling. How do you think we can figure out what the terrorists are up to if we don’t have any Americans who know Arabic?

CommonSense
4:29 pm CST
February 14, 2011


Here we go again. Someone said “Arab” and the anti-knowledge folks of Texas lose their minds.

There is nothing wrong with making a second language an educational requirement.

One language is as good as another. Although, in my opinion the Spanish language (and proper English) would best suit the needs of U.S. citizens.

However, I’m sure any new “Spanish language requirement” would invoke loud cries against illegal aliens in all of the usual ignorant ways.

Sooner or later, the people who think a good education just happens by magic (or by the grace of some deity) are going to ruin the lives of their children and the future of this nation.

Good education requires investment, like the grant money funding this language program. If people in Mansfield want to be idiots and refuse $1.3 million in extra money for their school system because they’re scared of the Arabic language, then please, have them send the money to schools in my district instead.

I’ll gladly watch children in my district grow up to be interpreters for the UN, military, multi-national corporations, FBI, or perhaps Arabic language teachers themselves. The kids in Mansfield can get by with the usual broken English taught by public schools due to the ignorance of their elders.

Mike
4:33 pm CST
February 14, 2011


Sometimes I seriously wonder whether we are all actually conscious or just a bunch of zombies.

Let’s get people alll worked up so we can manipulate them! Hey…I gotta idea…let’s spring a surprise on them at the last minute…maybe, Liberals want manditory abortions for offspring of low-IQ parents…

Wait…that’s too much and besides it is a national issue…we wanta energize them locallly. How bout we say that there will be manditory Arabic classes for all students? That’ll mobilize the zombies!

Jeez…I l.ove Texas, but I want to inspried not continually amuzed….

Sam
4:51 pm CST
February 14, 2011


Mike…you hit it on the head! People who are easily swayed by BS are generally good people who mean well.. Some folks don’t really things through and they have buttons that are very easy to press. In fact…it seems best to engineer new buttons for them that ‘leaders’ can press later when them need them.

cheryl
4:57 pm CST
February 14, 2011


You people with your sports cars and phd’s think you know it all.

orfeo
4:58 pm CST
February 14, 2011


Y’all should try harder not to be a bunch of xenophobic/racist parodies of Texas peckerwoods. If you took the money, abide by the terms of that money. If Bubba Jr. and little Lulu Jo don’t want to broaden their minds, they don’t have to take Arabic. Auto mechanics and cosmetology probably suit them better anyway.

Frank
5:14 pm CST
February 14, 2011


English – mandatory for all students. many of todays students can’t comprehend what the read.; for sure can’t write and speak only pigeon English or grunt…. don’t believe me… just watch and listen to a TV interview of a college football player…who usually has the benefit of multiple tutors.

from preschool – mandatory second language skill – Spanish, Chinese, Arabic, Russian, or Hindi —

Eliminate the Dept of Education.; simply allow parents to move their children to whatever school they believe will give their children the best education… tax payments should follow the child to the school….. by doing this it won’t take long to identify and close the schools…failing to educate children to compete in the world…

JR
5:17 pm CST
February 14, 2011


I think people should look at the bigger picture here. In the US Armed Forces and Intelligence Communities, there is a severe shortage of Arabic speaking personnel. It appears the largest threat to the US, outside of greedy bankers rick-rolling the economy or the economy in general, are radical Jihadists from the Arabic world. Not only should we as a nation better understand the Arabic world to better co-exist, but to flat out aid in stopping the Jihadists.

Anyone that cannot see past their base xenophobic tendencies and demand the removal of this program is helping to reduce the future security of our nation and undermine national security in general. This is forward thinking program, and quite frankly, many parents are not qualified to know what to teach their children. Most parents to not know or understand adequately the challenges of tomorrow. People aren’t required to be trained or certified in parental skills.

Ted
5:34 pm CST
February 14, 2011


I suggest that schools should require a mandatory homosexual experience for middle school students in Texas.

It is high time that young men know what it is they are expected to reject so they can truly see iit’s ugly truth.

SAM
8:24 pm CST
February 14, 2011


Sue, you make some strong remarks about dishonest reporting. I would beg to differ. Look at the FOCUS of the program FLAP: “Mansfield ISD was recently awarded a Foreign Language Assistance Program (FLAP) grant FOCUSED on the Arabic language from the Department of Education. The District applied for this grant because the Arabic language is listed by the federal government as a critical language. This means that our country has a shortage of Arabic speakers and there is a need for people who are not only proficient in the Arabic language, but also possess knowledge about its cultures and traditions.” These aren’t my words but are those of the Mansfield ISD in their 02/08/11 press release.

Continuing with the press release, one of the bullets states: “As part of language acquisition and development, the early grades would have elements of Arabic language within the framework of the state-mandated curriculum.”

Another point states: “This project is federally funded for $1.3 million dollars over a 5 year period.” You can be assured that the federal gov’t is NOT giving $1.3 MILLION dollars for a program without expecting it to be implemented.

The 3rd paragraph reads: “The FLAP grant was created to establish programs to address national shortages in languages including Arabic, Chinese and Russian. Mansfield ISD was one of five school districts in the country selected to receive the ARABIC grant.” Plain English makes this very clear that these grants are to address national shortages in languages (Arabic listed first) and states that Mansfield ISD was selected to receive the ARABIC grant.

Then read the paragraph on the left side: “The Foreign Language Assistance Program (FLAP) holds the distinction as the only federally funded program that exclusively targets foreign language instruction in elementary and secondary schools. It is funded through Title V of the No Child Left Behind Act (2001) under the George W. Bush administration.” If a program is exclusively targeting foreign language instruction, then it IS teaching (instructing) the foreign language.

I can read and see that the Mansfield ISD is having to backtrack with this decision. I see the statement: “There are no ‘mandatory Arabic classes’ as being falsely reported in the media.” This is just unrealistic. We didn’t just fall off the turnip truck. We understand that the Mansfield ISD is working with the parents and may not participate in the program but that doesn’t remove the truth of what the program was designed to be and Arabic language most definitely WAS included. IMO you owe the writer of the article an apology for such strong admonition. You can state your so-called facts without being condescending. Perhaps you should be ashamed of yourself. However, I doubt you will be. Thank you.

Mick Lovin
8:49 pm CST
February 14, 2011


It is a load of crap, any teaching of anything Arabic/Culture/Muslim related in our classroom when we can’t even say the Pledge of Allegiance or pray?

Muslim is a RELIGION masquerading as a Political Movement.

You can call it fear mongering all you want, but Sharia Law/Muslim Culture is a RELIGION and has no business being anywhere near our US schools….

ray
8:51 pm CST
February 14, 2011


Egypt is in the midst of great change that can work for or against US interests, many other middle eastern countries are in upheaval. The CIA has been criticized for not being up to speed. The US needs citizens who can translate arabic and who understand the culture and yes the religion that shapes much of that culture. So, Sam, no question, the feds are providing schools with an incentive to offer education programs about Arabic Culture and Language. Why? So we can enhance our ability to understand what is happening in a part of the world that has oil that we need, the Suez Canal and a population some of which are our allies and some of which hate us. So if you get a grant to teach Arabic culture and Language, yes it is mandatory that the program teach Arabic culture and language. The language is not mandatory. To those who are saying American History only, English only, Constitution only (can anyone really show us a school system that doesn’t teach the Constitution–if so take your kids out of that school), young people need to learn about the world. The history of Europe, WW II, the Cold War, understanding China and the Far East and understanding Israel and the Middle East. In other worlds we need to prepare our young people to be able to understand the World which is now as close as their Smartphones. Prepare them for jobs that will promote the security of our country.

Michael
9:36 pm CST
February 14, 2011


The state of Texas does not need the federal gov’t telling us we need how we need to educate our children. We don’t seem to be able to teach Hispanics how to speak English, so why shoud we teach Caucasians how to speak Arabic? Let’s get seious about education and put this diversity crap aside.

Dan
10:06 pm CST
February 14, 2011


Hey Sue! Nobody is buying ur liberal crap! We all know what this and it is an attempt of the federal government to shove a culture of violence down our throats and try to make us tolerate it!! More and more of us are finding out about this culture and we don’t like it!!!

CWJensen
11:12 pm CST
February 14, 2011


GOD I LOVE AMERICA :)

KLAUS
11:32 pm CST
February 14, 2011


IN CASE YOU BLEEDING HEARTS DID NOT GET THE MESSAGE:
THESE ARE THE FORERUNNERS OF THE SHARIA LAW INTRODUCTION.
LETS BRAINWASH THE INNOCENT KIDS SINCE THEY DO NOT KNOW ANY BETTER AND LAY THE GROUNDWORK FOR WHAT WILL INEVITABLY FOLLOW.
YOU REMOVE THE CANCER AT THE EARLIEST.
ISLAM IS ON THE MOVE.
THEY HAVE ALREADY TOO MUCH OF A FOOTHOLD IN THE US OF A.
AND FOR ALL YOUR HISTORY ILLITERATES HERE, AMERICA WAS FOUNDED ON JUDEO-CHRISTIAN PRINCIPLES AND NO OTHERS.
WHY HASN’T THAT IDIOT WHO IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THIS FAUX PAS BEEN FINGERED AND INVESTIGATED YET.
NO GUTS TO STAND UP FOR THE DEED, HEH?
THIS IS HOW SHARIA WILL CREEP INTO OUR SYSTEM, THROUGH LIES AND DISHONESTY.
KUDOS TO THESE WATCHFUL PARENTS.
PEOPLE, PLEASE MONITOR YOUR SCHOOL BOARDS SCRUTINIZE EVERYONE RUNNING FOR IT. AND THROW THEM OUT AS SOON AS THEY ACT SUSPICIOUSLY.
BUT IF YOU LIKE TO BE THROWN BACK INTO THE 13TH CENTURY KEEP KISSING ISLAM BUTT AND STAY POLITICALLY CORRECT – YOU MORONS.

AH
10:57 am CST
February 14, 2011


ALL of us could attest to the fact that we’ve been lied to, told half-truths, etc… from “official” websites (like mansfielisd.org), at least one or twice (yours truly is first in this line)……
Let’s make sure the kids get the basics (the 3 R’s) down first… never mind diversity, which has failed miserably!

Texas Mama
11:23 am CST
February 14, 2011


Nadir……….This nation was not founded on Judeo-Christian principles? What? Where did that come from? This is ridiculous! Diversity has been shoved down our throats! That’s why the USA is in such a mess! If you choose to COME to America – the Land of Opportunity – then become FIRST an AMERICAN! This multiculturism/diversity has sucked up the TRUE meaning of being an AMERICAN! We can’t be the greatest “savior” nation to the world if we don’t know WHO WE ARE!!!!! I’m a retired public school teacher! I know firsthand that kids graduating from public school have very little command of the English language! So, don’t spend more tax money on “fluff”….give ALL our students a usable education. More technical training is needed. Not all graduating seniors will be able to walk into a white collar job with a laptop in their briefcase! There’s NOTHING wrong with providing blue collar jobs! As long as the kids have realistic expectations and enjoy what they have been trained for and WANT to do! But I agree that Sharia Law/Muslim Culture does NOT belong in public US schools! We are freedoming and “politically correct-ing” ourselvesand our great Nation right out of existence!. Heaven help us all!

CommonSense
11:39 am CST
February 14, 2011


I find it particularly amusing that so many people continue to bring up “Sharia Law” as if these uneducated whiners even know what that means.

As I’ve previously stated, if the people of Mansfield want to be idiots and refuse $1.3 million for their schools then please send the money to schools in my district.

I’ll gladly watch children in my district grow up to be interpreters for the UN, U.S. military, multi-national corporations (even oil companies), FBI, or perhaps Arabic language teachers themselves.

The kids in Mansfield can get by with the usual broken English taught by public schools due to the ignorance of their elders.

Richard
12:04 pm CST
February 14, 2011


So now there’s 2 towns of prominence nationwide confronting this debate in Arblemarle NC, ( North Stanley Middle School), joining Mansfield, Tx. , (Cross Timbers Middle School). And here are two links that should be given consideration in arriving at a sound decision in this matter (1) From Wiki Answers regarding the language used in Islamic services worldwide – http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_language_is_used_in_Mosques and (2) what a reknown and respected authority has to say about the Islam she came from http://www.familysecuritymatters.org/publications/id.2207/pub_detail.asp . And yes, I do agree that the D.O.E. needs to be gone, it’s not only vestigial it’s an inflamed and putrid depository for Our Tax Money.

SmallTxFarmer
12:07 pm CST
February 14, 2011


I have to say Alice Anders, ray, and CommonSense get it as the modern KnowNothings once again rise to the hysterical right-wing nativist bait: if it’s not Amurr-i-kin (white, english speakin, KJV quotin’, I’ve got mine the heck with you believing folk) then its got t’ be EEEEEEEEEEEEEEE-vil!

Folks, my son just retired from 20+ years in the US Army as an Interpreter/Interrogator and he confirms that there are a number of languages that the military and other security services (CIA, NSA, etc) have a critical need in and we’re not producing the folks in the USA to fill the need. The FLAP program is one attempt to fill this gap in our current and future defense establishment. If you have military background you may also know about another initiative: the Defense Language Institute at the Presidio in Monterrey, CA. So rather than take your cues from Dan “Flim-Flam” Flynn and his fellow right-wing race-baiters at the Capitol, maybe ya’ll oughta be real Texans and do some reading and questioning and thoughtful thinking before going ballistic over something some Republican party hack tells you to believe.

BTW…

As someone on the Left I’m all in favor of getting rid of the Department of Education – frankly the states and most locales have enough folks with graduate and post-graduate degrees they oughta be able to figure what kind of education locals need to survive and thrive and pay for it locally as well. Locally – not at the state level but at the town or county level. Then those freed up federal funds can be used to pay down and eventually pay off Mr. Bush’s deficit creating wars…..smile

Danny
12:10 pm CST
February 14, 2011


I meet students taught Arabic and other middle eastern languages, if you want to know in English what they say on a daily basis click here or copy and paste, this is one of thousands of English/Arabic speaking graduating students present their ideology from Arabic into English….http://www.islameyat.com/post_details.php?id=3647&cat=35&scat=169

KLAUS
1:21 pm CST
February 14, 2011


FOR ALL YOU POLITICALLY CORRECT LEFTWING NUMB NUTS JUST WATCH THIS VIDEO CLIP.
IT WILL EDUCATE YOU, HOPEFULLY, BEYOND YOUR DISPLAYED ELEMENTARY LEVEL.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BLpEXzAAyo&feature=youtube_gdata_player

AND FOR ALL YOU FEMALE IGNORAMUSES, I HOPE YOU WILL NEVER FIND YOURSELF AT THE RECEIVING END OF A SHARIA LAW TRIAL.

Vicki
1:49 pm CST
February 14, 2011


More stupid things the people in control do to spend money. If any language is the “language of the future”, it would have to be Spanish. Spanish speakers make up 48% of the population and happen to be the only group multiplying like rabbits because 1) automatic citizenship for the kiddies and 2) Mom figures she is protected from deportation for being illigal if she has a dozen kids needing her to drive them to get their free government handouts.

MINYARD COLE
3:27 pm CST
February 14, 2011


THIS NATION WAS FOUNDED AS A JUDO-CHRISTEN NATION-PERIOD
WE ALLOW ED OTHER RELIGIONS THAT COULD CARE LESS FOR US, IT’S TIME TO DO A BUNCH OF HOUSE CLEANING. TREAT ILEAGELS AS SPYS AND THEIVES AND DO ACORDINGLY…..M.E.

garywfbg
4:25 pm CST
February 14, 2011


SmallTxFarmer—Seems to me if the military wants our soldiers to know another language, they could use a crash course and teach them—-not make it mandatory for ELEMENTARY CHILDREN.

BTW–I see you have the blame Bush syndrome, also. How I wish he was back instead of this no-nothing we have in there now.
As far as eliminating departments—EPA, OSHA, Dept. of education, Dept of energy, Dept of agriculture and a dozen more I can’t think of right now—out with them all!!

Mike
5:54 pm CST
February 14, 2011


Actually, our Founding Fathers specifically stated that theirs was not a Judeo Christion construct.
Read the Federalist papers and know this without as it is in their own words. Geez…don’t just say sh%t because you heard it on TV or your backwoods minister pulled it outa his arse.

garywfbg
6:59 pm CST
February 14, 2011


Mike—You are either a college student, a union worker, a Looney professor or an atheist with no center about anything. I know you think you are swift about a lot of this stuff—BUT, you don’t want to start a debate about the Constitution, Federalist Papers or other history back then—there are a lot of very educated folks on this site that may teach you a thing or two (without ugly words). :)

PS–I’m not the guy—but I know of two for sure!!

Vincent Yakubanski
7:05 pm CST
February 14, 2011


This is stupid with the respect to the language that needs to be taught whish is Spanish. The US is going to have a majority of Hispanics in the near future and everyone should know Spanish to communicate not that we do not need to keep English as our primary language for all documents and communication but Spanish is needed to bring Hispanic into the fold and to have Hispanics understand English in order to be a contributor to the US. Arabic is for the US forces to use to crush those Muslims that are for Syria law etc.

Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government — lest it come to dominate our lives and interests.” — Patrick Henry

Mike
8:49 pm CST
February 14, 2011


There is NO debate…they wrote their views down. This is a matter of fact, not opinion. I am not an athiest, but I do not speak in falsehoods to make my points.

Mike
8:54 pm CST
February 14, 2011


And what, pray tell, does liberal or union activist have to do with this issue?
And how would you analyse mt lack of “center” from this subject or the words I have used?
Faith is a very personal issue and as such CANNOT be pursued in the public square without lobatomitizing all those who do not agree with you…and of course we are not for that…or are we?

KLAUS
9:02 pm CST
February 14, 2011


WELL MIKE, JUST POST THE WEBSITE WHERE THIS PARTICULAR FEDERALIST PAPER IS CITED AFTER WHICH WE ALL WILL BE CONVINCED.
TILL THEN – GO INTO HIDING.
OFF THE TOPIC BUT SOMETHING EVERYONE SHOULD KNOW AND BE AWARE OF, PLEASE WATCH THIS SHORT VIDEO ABOUT 10 MINS. YOU WILL BE GLAD YOU DID

Mike
9:46 pm CST
February 14, 2011


Do you mean that you do not know of the Federalist papers? http://thomas.loc.gov/home/histdox/fedpapers.html

And, why should I hide…that is an interesting comment that says more about you than about me, sir.

PS. garywfbg was right about one thing and I apologize for my colorful language.

garywfbg
9:58 pm CST
February 14, 2011


Well, that narrows it down. Wisdom and experience comes with age or is given by God as a gift. I may be wrong; this seems to escape your comments. My apologies for calling you an atheist, but the groups I have named have many of the same attributes. Organize, destroy the status quo or beliefs, implement and grow their own beliefs or advance their benefits through mob like coercion, establish a central power base to defeat any adversaries.

BTW—Did I tell you Muslims do this same stuff? :)

sparrow
9:59 pm CST
February 14, 2011


Sounds like the next bilingual EDU.~~~might be valuable to know what the Muslims’ are saying beore they cut off one’s hand

Mike
10:07 pm CST
February 14, 2011


I suspect my age and experience transcends or equal yours but I would be a fool to claim this affirmatively. We do disagree however anout how wisdome and experience are earned. I’m not sure what you mean by your “same attreibutes” comment. As for beliefs…I do not in any way wish to destroy yours. But your conclusions about those who disagree with you do not seem wise (although I am not going so far to say they are not as I have no rught to define your viewpoint or meaning life).

Mike
10:44 pm CST
February 14, 2011


I will now go away. But before I go. It is not a virtue to led by the emotional nose. There will never be manidatoy Arabic in schools…that’s just ignorant baiting and shame on those who fell for it. The money was to have Arabic as an elective…like Bible studies, Have some self respect. Read something different than what is obviously not working for you.

SAM
11:42 pm CST
February 14, 2011


Mike…sorry to see ya go. You called it for truth my friend.

BTW…here is a Statesman article about the ignoramus who wrote this article…turns out he is a crook. No wondert he’s chole the chains of imbiciles to try to change the subject.

COMPILED FROM WIRE REPORTS

Published: 7:21 p.m. Thursday, Jan. 27, 2011

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INVESTIGATIONS

Report: Lawmaker case widens

Travis County prosecutors have expanded a criminal inquiry into Texas lawmakers’ double-dipping on expenses after one representative repaid his campaign more than $15,000.

A person with knowledge of the situation confirmed the expanded investigation Thursday but would not name the lawmakers. The person spoke on condition of anonymity because the person did not want to endanger the investigation.

Prosecutors already acknowledged that they are investigating state Rep. Joe Driver, but not Rep. Dan Flynn, the other lawmaker identified by the AP to have possibly double-dipped.

Flynn said he audited his accounts after an AP investigation turned up evidence that he had collected thousands of dollars in taxpayer money for expenses paid for by his campaign. Flynn repaid his campaign nearly $15,800.

Mike
11:44 pm CST
February 14, 2011


Sam:

Actually is says that he was the whistleblower,,,but nice try.

Cheryl
12:01 am CST
February 14, 2011


I’m tired of people thinking they can say the most stupid things and we’ll just swallow it . Pease people, wake up! There are no liions awaiting Christians so stop wishing them on others. Please!

Collin
12:18 am CST
February 14, 2011


Jefferson, Madison, and the “wall of separation”The phrase “[A] hedge or wall of separation between the garden of the church and the wilderness of the world” was first used by Baptist theologian Roger Williams, the founder of the colony of Rhode Island, in his 1644 book The Bloody Tenent of Persecution.[14][15] The phrase was later used by Thomas Jefferson as a description of the First Amendment and its restriction on the legislative branch of the federal government, in an 1802 letter[16] to the Danbury Baptists (a religious minority concerned about the dominant position of the Congregationalist church in Connecticut):

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his god, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their “legislature” should “make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,” thus building a wall of separation between church and State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.

Jefferson’s letter was in reply to a letter[17] that he had received from the Danbury Baptist Association dated October 7, 1801. In an 1808 letter to Virginia Baptists, Jefferson would use the same theme:

We have solved, by fair experiment, the great and interesting question whether freedom of religion is compatible with order in government and obedience to the laws. And we have experienced the quiet as well as the comfort which results from leaving every one to profess freely and openly those principles of religion which are the inductions of his own reason and the serious convictions of his own inquiries.

Collin
12:22 am CST
February 14, 2011


On the establishment and free exercise of religion
The first generation of American citizens had a variety of views on religion. Many people, mindful of a time when English monarchs dictated religious worship, expressed a desire to include a guarantee of religious freedom in a Bill of Rights. A Whig writing to the Philadelphia Independent Gazetteer, on Nov. 1, 1787, had this to say about the freedom of religion:

“The more I reflect upon the history of mankind, the more I am disposed to think that it is our duty to secure the essential rights of the people, by every precaution; for not an avenue has been left unguarded, through which oppression could possibly enter in any government; without some enemy of the public peace and happiness improving the opportunity to break in upon the liberties of the people; and none have been more frequently successful in the attempt, than those who have covered their ambitious designs under the garb of a fiery zeal for religious orthodoxy. What has happened in other countries and in other ages may very possibly happen again in our own country, and for aught we know, before the present generation quits the stage of life. We ought therefore in a bill of rights to secure, in the first place, by the most express stipulations, the sacred rights of conscience. Has this been done in the constitution, which is now proposed for the consideration of the people of the country? — Not a word on this subject has been mentioned in any part of it; but we are left in this important article, as well as many others, entirely to the mercy of our future rulers.”

Collin
12:25 am CST
February 14, 2011


One common misuse of the Declaration of Independence is to argue that it states that our rights come from God and, therefore, there are no legitimate interpretations of the rights in the Constitution that would be contrary to God. The first problem is that the Declaration of Independence refers to a “Creator” and not the Christian “God” meant by people making the argument. The second problem is that the “rights” mentioned in the Declaration of Independence are “life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness” — none of which are “rights” discussed in the Constitution.

Finally, the Declaration of Independence also makes it clear that governments created by humanity derive their powers from the consent of the governed, not from any gods. This is why the Constitution does not make any mention of any gods. There is no reason to think that there is anything illegitimate about an interpretation of any of the rights outlined in the Constitution merely because it runs contrary to what some people think that their conception of a god would want.

What this all means is that arguments against the separation of church and state which rely upon the language of the Declaration of Independence fail. First, the document in question has no legal authority with which one could make a legal case. Second, the sentiments expressed therein do not support the principle that government should be guided either by any specific religion (like Christianity) or by religion “in general” (as if such a thing even existed).

Cheryl
12:43 am CST
February 14, 2011


You people with your sports cars and phd’s think you know it all.
.

garywfbg
10:06 am CST
February 14, 2011


Cheryl–Do you covet my Sports car or PHD if I had one?? I hope I don’t have one of these—you sound like you hate these people. Also, I don’t understand the lion thing–and I’m wide awake? Constant vigil. :)

BTW–There are people blogging here (in force) i’ve never heard of before and I’ve posted here for a while now—–Can you tell me what the deal is?? Not that they can’t or I care —– just curious.

MIKE
10:39 am CST
February 14, 2011


garywfbg, this articale ended up as a tagline on news.google,com . the headline was so hirlarious that I think it caused some tonh=gue-in-cheek interest

MIKE
11:01 am CST
February 14, 2011


garywfbg … about her lion thing… in ancient Rome the state reliigion was polytheistic and considered the only route to moral righteousnes. Christianity was see as a threat to social order. Christians were hated and sent to die in big coliseums to be killed by lions for the entertainment of the people in to incite hated in them for the Christians.

Strangely this speaks directly to the issue at hand…Rome wanted polytheism to be the state religion at the expense of other faiths. Now Christians are claiming the same agressive stance in the US.

You would think that given the history, Christions like us would not want to become our ancient torturers echo…but even though this is obvious it does not seem to part of our mindset.

Also, some of the migrants who have built this country fled England because we were oppressed by the Church of England. What a shame we now seem to wish to play the Church of England’s part here.

There are many beliefs among people who attend our schools. It is as wrong to propagate Islam in schools as it would be to try to propagate christianity.

But..by going so overboard about this issue… we christians have turned people against us and I am afraid we have made bafoons of ourselves.

garywfbg
11:47 am CST
February 14, 2011


Thanks Mike–a little sarcasm there–appreciate the History lesson though!!

BTW—”You will know them by their fruits”……..

STU
3:24 pm CST
February 14, 2011


Mike..maybe if they cannot understand the clear words in the Federalist papers they may actually misunderstand our scripture:

Matthew 7:12 ESV
“So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.

Give not that which is holy to dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

STU
3:27 pm CST
February 14, 2011


That fuits line is so misused….it actually means you will know false prophets by their deeds. That particular line actually strenghtens Mike’s words.

Give not that which is holy to dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

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11:41 am CST
February 14, 2011


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